Why are there so few Clerics and Shamans?

[Edward McGee]

Clerics and Shamans share many of the same benefits.

They can wear medium armor.
They are full casters based on wisdom. A good stat to have high.
They can both channel to heal. Shaman has to take Life Spirit as a primary or wandering spirit or be a Witch Doctor to do so.
They both have Diplomacy as a class skill and a reason to boost charisma.
And they both have useful abilities when not casting spells. Domain abilities for the cleric and Hexes for the shaman.

But I rarely see either class locally.

Do people just see them as second rate Life Oracles?

What are your thoughts on these classes?

[pgfrix]

Re: Cleric - 2 skill point classes are an endangered species after Season Six. The campaign made that choice for the players.

Re: Shaman - It's not just a local phenomenon. I suspect it might be a general aversion to a non-standard spell list, but I wouldn't call the spell list 'bad' by any stretch especially if you compare against Witch or Druid, rather than Cleric/Oracle.

[TimD]

Character decisions are generally made by role fulfillment at this point, rather than class. While Clerics can manage several different roles to some degree they are no longer the top of any given role that they once were before the advent of life oracles.
That said, I have several clerics that I play off and on, especially my "Purpose-built 1st", Kermitous. It may just be an anomoly.

Shamans start late so may not be as attractive as many of the other newer classes and their abilities are a bit less intuitiive than most.

[jackd]

My PFS -1 character is a cleric, but I haven't played a Shaman.  I've not wanted to do another cleric because I haven't thought of a concept or build that appeals to me, and there are so many classes I haven't played at all.  (The lack of skills is a pain.  My guy has a great Sense Motive and Perception, but not much else.) In the case of the Shaman, I haven't come across anything that tells me, "this class is really great at X".

[Daniel H]

The only real draw I see for a shaman is going for the unsworn one. Then you can pick whatever 2 spirits you want each day and custom build your character to every party fairly effectively. But the class overall just feels sort of meh, and it doesn't really feel like it has a good class fantasy to me.

[Kevin Willis]

I have 3 clerics - one is my 15th level character.  The other two are clerics partly because that's the base class that the most easily (mechanically and thematically) fits into the Prestige Classes that I wanted to play.  I don't currently play a shaman but of the "theoretical" builds I have the shaman delivering all spells through his familiar is probably the next one I'm going to use.  It best fits the themes I like to play (underused mechanic and a fun role-playing background).

I certainly don't regard either class as a "lesser life oracle."  But that's probably because I don't play any of those characters as "I'm a healer."  Sure I prepare a couple of heals and a mass cure serious.  But using those is always my last resort; I prefer to do other things.  I doubt you'll see anyone playing a straight high-wis, mid charisma, healing domain, un-archetyped cleric these days.

Mechanically I will agree that the low skill points lower the desirability.  (Though I would point to seasons 3 & 4 as the reason for the nosedive in the number of clerics - No points in a trained-only skill and no one else has chosen your faction out of the ten options?  Probably going to miss at least one prestige point.  It's gotten better since the success conditions are group-based.)  More than that I think the desire to "do something" is a reason many people don't choose to play a cleric or shaman.  You aren't a particularly damaging frontliner.  Your attack spells aren't the greatest.  You don't have the best buffs.  Often your best option is to wait and see where your help is needed in combat.  By which time the combat is over.