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+--- Thread: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? (/showthread.php?tid=43)
Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Will Dover - 05-08-2017
Working on a concept for a friend.
Will
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Abraham Z - 05-08-2017
No, because they are natural attacks. This also means:
1. If used together with weapon attacks, each natural attack is at a -5.
2. You don't get iterative attacks with them.
3. They can be combined with Flurry if Blows (with the Feral Combat feat) but the total number of attacks doesn't increase (per some FAQ).
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - liamfisher - 05-12-2017
If you have claw attacks - they are always considered primary natural attacks.
Primaries are full BAB, secondaries are -5 unless you have Multiattack which makes the secondaries -2. Secondary natural attacks are at half strength mod and power attack.
Also, no iterative for you.
BUT
You can treat claws as light weapons and use the TWF chain of feats and gain iterative attacks like any other weapon. (Also finesse for unchained rogues)
You just can't mix the two, just like flurry and TWF.
IF the weapons do not share limbs. Like clawed feet and two weapons, you can then combine the two, but then expect a lot of grief at tables. The natural attacks
would be considered secondary attacks and be at -5 and half strength/power attack.
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Abraham Z - 05-12-2017
(05-12-2017, 02:20 PM)liamfisher Wrote: You can treat claws as light weapons and use the TWF chain of feats and gain iterative attacks like any other weapon. (Also finesse for unchained rogues)Liam, can you give me a source for this?
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Kevin Willis - 05-13-2017
(05-12-2017, 03:18 PM)Abraham Z Wrote:(05-12-2017, 02:20 PM)liamfisher Wrote: You can treat claws as light weapons and use the TWF chain of feats and gain iterative attacks like any other weapon. (Also finesse for unchained rogues)Liam, can you give me a source for this?
Pathfinder PRD - Weapon Finesse
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Abraham Z - 05-13-2017
Yes, I get that they are finesseable, but I'm not seeing how that lets you get iteratives with them.
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Daniel H - 05-13-2017
Because if they're treated as a light weapon, they function like a kukri or a dagger, which you can take iteratives with. But you can't use them for a full-attack per a normal weapon and as a full attack with natural attacks at the same time. One or the other.
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - Kevin Willis - 05-13-2017
(05-13-2017, 02:27 PM)Abraham Z Wrote: Yes, I get that they are finesseable, but I'm not seeing how that lets you get iteratives with them.
Ah, I understand the question now.
You don't get iteratives. That's specifically called out in the CRB.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
(05-13-2017, 02:52 PM)Daniel H Wrote: Because if they're treated as a light weapon, they function like a kukri or a dagger, which you can take iteratives with. But you can't use them for a full-attack per a normal weapon and as a full attack with natural attacks at the same time. One or the other.
I think there might be confusion about what is meant by "light weapon." Light weapon is a subset of other weapons. It's not a separate weapon type. So you can have:
- Manufactured weapon (light)
- Manufactured weapon (not light)
- Natural weapon (light) (all natural weapons are considered light)
RE: Is Two-Weapon Fighting needed with Claws of the Beast? - liamfisher - 05-14-2017
(05-13-2017, 05:32 PM)Kevin Willis Wrote:(05-13-2017, 02:27 PM)Abraham Z Wrote: Yes, I get that they are finesseable, but I'm not seeing how that lets you get iteratives with them.
Ah, I understand the question now.
You don't get iteratives. That's specifically called out in the CRB.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
(05-13-2017, 02:52 PM)Daniel H Wrote: Because if they're treated as a light weapon, they function like a kukri or a dagger, which you can take iteratives with. But you can't use them for a full-attack per a normal weapon and as a full attack with natural attacks at the same time. One or the other.
I think there might be confusion about what is meant by "light weapon." Light weapon is a subset of other weapons. It's not a separate weapon type. So you can have:You can only take iterative attacks with manufactured weapons (unless you have a special ability allowing otherwise).
- Manufactured weapon (light)
- Manufactured weapon (not light)
- Natural weapon (light) (all natural weapons are considered light)
Yeah, after digging I agree. I was confused with using two weapon fighting and using a manufactured weapon with natural weapons that way.
That part does work, but it is debatable.
I understand why Paizo did what they did (imagine a dragon with iterative attacks...) but it limits it as a character option. Fists get a better treatment
than claws do, and you can't tell me that fists are more versatile. Monks can flurry with claws if they have Feral Combat Training. But characters like
Bloodragers who get claws don't keep up unless they can get things like Improved Natural Attack or Vital Strike.